We need to talk.
Having the economic privilege to spend a few summers in Cairo or to study abroad in Dubai does not give you the authority to speak about Middle Eastern culture.
Dating a Saudi guy does not give you the authority to speak about Islam. Or about Muslim men.
Knowing some Muslim women through work or as friends does not give you the authority to speak for them or the rest of Muslim women.
There are those of us who suffer. But don’t speak of us as victims if we are not dead. Don’t deny the agency with which we become survivors and active shapers of our lives. Don’t ignore the fighting we do for ourselves.
We can—and do—speak for ourselves. So stop speaking for us.
I notice a lot of condescension and arrogance when you talk to us or about us. Let me be clear: you do not know more about us than we know about ourselves, our religion, our cultures, our families, or the forces that shape our lives. You do not know what’s best for us more than we do.
So please check yourselves.
Being an ally does not mean speaking for us, making choices for us, or figuring out what’s best for us. It means supporting and defending the choices we make and the voices we use.
If we want help, and ask for it, then do only what you’re asked. Don’t invent new ways to characterize us as oppressed or agitate for the solving of problems that aren’t pressingly important. Case in point: if we want better divorce laws in a particular country, don’t agitate for the abolishing of mandatory clothing policies.
If you can’t do that, then don’t bother. It’s better to just stay out of our way. Passing judgment on and mischaracterizing our choices, our religion, or ways of life does us more harm than good; with friends like that, who needs enemies?
Sincerely,
An Islamic feminist who has met one-too-many white non-Muslim feminists that assume that they know better
Update: Before you comment, here’s some suggested reading:
October 13, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Love this post! This is such an important message. We have to frame Islamic feminism in our not anyone else’s and we definitely have to drill home the point that we are not little victims constantly needing non-Muslims to hold our hands and how to live our lives.
October 13, 2008 at 2:10 pm
right on
October 13, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Well, I appreciate the concept, but I think the poster substituted ‘good manners’ (it’s always polite to mind your own business) for righteous argument. In fact, it ought to be argued that western feminism is simply bad–bad for Muslim women, bad for western women. Western women are slaves, have little hope of marrying, are shoved into abortion ‘clinics’ when they dare to conceive, and suffer public humiliation through the revealing style of clothing favored by their masters. They have no dignity. They are impovrished by divorce and must make a virtue of raising their children alone. They register like dogs rather than marry like human beings. That’s why western feminists, who embrace the sexual revolution (which is over; we lost.) rather than fidelity, should be told they’re wrong, and to come over to Muslim (or Christian) values.
I am a white non-Muslim woman, and I regularly thank the veiled Muslim women I meet in the store or clinic for their modest dress, and I dress modestly myself. My Catholic faith teaches purity in marriage, chastity outside of marriage, life-long fidelity to one wife or husband, only natural forms of birth control (abstinence during fertile periods being the only acceptable type, and only practicable for good and serious reason at that). This faith is under enormous pressure to change, and hostility from the press, and oppression from society. We suffer from these feminists, too, but we are more alone than you–you have each other, whereas it is harder to recognize us (although these days it is getting to be that if you see a woman dressed modestly, in an ample skirt, hair covered, you know she’s got to “be” something; even little girls are wearing baby pole-dancing outfits).
I fully invite you to tell western women about their problems any time you see us. Don’t mind your own business. Raise your voices!
October 13, 2008 at 6:32 pm
By the way, this is a very, very pretty blog. Come look at mine, we both went for greens. Yours is more subtle, check out my unsubtle, lion-hearted lily! The White Lily is another of the very many traditional names for Mary, the mother of Christ. (I’m not worthy to use it, but I’m trying to honor her.) I’m at http://thewhitelilyblog.wordpress.com
October 14, 2008 at 12:35 am
@ White Lily: Whoa. Okay, I feel like you missed the point of my letter. My point is that we all have our own struggles and our own ways of life and ways of dealing with things, so let’s not assume we all know what’s best for others.
I don’t think western feminism is bad for western feminists. But when western feminists co-opt the narratives of Muslim women, or tell Muslim women that they (western feminists) know what’s best for them (Muslim women), there’s a problem.
Western feminism is often positioned as incompatible with organized religion; those of us who want to keep our religion (whatever it is) AND get the rights/respect we deserve are left at a loss in a framework like that.
Western feminism also has a history of ignoring or marginalizing movements that don’t focus solely on white, middle-class women. So Muslim women and Muslim women of color are often patronized or ignored. I don’t want a movement that thinks it knows more about me than I do to speak for me.
October 14, 2008 at 3:17 am
Fatemeh, I’ve no comment, great job.
Well there is an event soon at OSU if you wanna come to speak up what you have, well this is what I received from ICSP,
“If you are comfortable talking about your experience here at OSU, your faith, and what you would like non-Muslims to know about you and/or Islam, I’d like you to be prepared to discuss this. We hope this will broaden some minds in the community and on campus, and help people understand and appreciate our differences.”
Because most of the presenters will be guys, so if you join as a Muslim feminine voice, it would be great.
I’ve no idea yet when this event will happen but will keep you updated.
October 14, 2008 at 10:14 am
@ Whitelily,
I strongly disagree with you when you say western feminists have little chances of getting married or suffer public humiliation for the way they dress. You also used some strong words to describe them like “slaves” or “dogs” who register “rather than marry like human beings.” Are you suggesting that if a woman isn’t married, she’s not a decent human being? It’s sad when our society makes certain assumptions and accusations towards single women. We simplify things and categorize them, as if it’s *their* fault that they’re not married. It’s not like you go out to a store, pick out a guy, and then get married. It’s much more complex than that. There are countless women who are victims of domestic violence, for example, but some of them are afraid to step forward and report them because they so dependent on their husbands. Do we still view marriage in the same positive light here, or do we start promoting independence for women so that if they find themselves in this position, they can develop the strength and determination they need to leave the man. You speak about single moms who raise their children — well is it their fault? What if the husband is the one who left? Who is to blame there? We cannot judge someone based upon their marital status.
I agree with Fatemeh that it’s annoying and frustrating when certain western feminists behave as if they know everything about Muslim women. As Fatemeh wrote in her comment, she doesn’t think western feminism is bad for western feminists, it’s just wrong when they think know what’s best for Muslim women.
I agree with her entire post and comment. I just wanted to point out how being unmarried doesn’t mean you have no dignity, or that you’re “impoverished.” Many feminists work hard to establish equality in the workplace, in schools, and in homes, so it’s unfair to make those kind of judgments against them.
Great post, Fatemeh
October 15, 2008 at 3:09 am
While I understand some of the sentiment in this letter, the position of women in Islam, and Islam itself, is a sorry state of affairs.
Islam as it is currently practiced is so far from its original intention, as to make it almost unrecognizable. There is in my opinion a desperate grasp by many Muslims to hold onto a miraged belief that Islam is somehow better than other faiths, due to its chronology of existence, and the notion that the quran is untainted in its transmission, and that this somehow justifies hitting out at anyone who dares to criticize it, or seek its major reform.
Western feminism and whatever ism you may care to lump with it, that seeks to criticize or change what it perceives as an outmoded, often barbaric set of institutions, has every right to make those criticisms. These are universal principles, not something dependent on whether you are Muslim or not.
Islam is where Christianity was a few hundred years ago. Muslims need to recognize the state of their religion historically and spiritually. This dark age won’t last, as can be seen with the changes that have occurred in its past, and in the histories of all other religions, creeds, and isms. Whether the criticism comes from inside or externally is irrelevant. The important thing is that the fundamental rights of the human being to freedom, equality, and a path clear of superstition are fought for.
If a religion fails to provide these rights, it is either wrong or needs to be changed.
October 15, 2008 at 8:53 am
I’m a Western feminist (as much as I hate to put myself in labelled boxes) but I also come from a Muslim family, but I myself do not consider myself a Muslim.
It’s not necessary that Western feminists ‘act’ like they know what is best for Muslim women, they feel an empathy towards them, it’s more like a natural female bonding. Nobody is forcing Muslim women to ‘take help’ but a lot of women, whatever religion, race and culture they belong to, ASK for help. I want help myself, I want to be liberated! I’m not immoral, I don’t sleep around, I don’t hurt anybody, nor do I force my views onto people. As a ‘Western feminist’ I don’t patronise Muslim women.
It’s not necessary that a Western feminist does not know about your religion. I know Islam, I’ve studied it. Don’t tell me that I ‘obviously didnt study it well enough if I let my faith go’ because that would be equal to a Western feminist who knows nothing about your religion being patronising or arrogant towards you.
October 15, 2008 at 11:56 am
I hate to break it to you, but we’re going to be continuing to use our freedom of speech given to us by our constitution whether you like it or not. Personally, as someone who stands for basic human rights I have no choice but to speak out against the most extreme, vile, and offensive aspects of (radical?) Islam. I will continue to oppose public stonings as backward and barbaric which they are. I will continue to oppose honor murders, which happen every day and not only in muslim nations but in the USA as well. I will continue to raise awareness for the victims of jihad, both historically and today. And if you don’t like it thats just tough for you.
October 15, 2008 at 11:57 am
I will also continue to oppose barbaric teachings such as 4:34. Men do not have a right to beat their wives. It is wrong, evil, backward and must end. I hope you are as outraged by 4:34 as I am.
October 15, 2008 at 6:44 pm
@ g: It’s not my place to tell you that you “obviously didnt study it well enough if I let my faith go.” I agree that it’s the same thing as a patronizing secular feminist telling me that my religion is wrong.
My issue is that when Muslim women ask for help, it’s either ignored or those who want to help think they know better. Here’s a really great paper on what I’m talking about that deals with western feminists’ mishandling of the fight for Afghan women.
@ Jon & David: I’m getting a sense that you’re unfamiliar with Islamic feminism. Think of it like FUBU: for us (Muslim women), by us. Here’s a pretty good and thorough overview.
Islamic feminists realize that there are problems within the Muslim communities where we live and in predominately Muslim nations, and that these stem from a variety of causes. And we work to solve these problems and attain “fundamental rights of the human being to freedom” for ourselves.
The point of my letter isn’t to say, “Butt out, white people, and leave us brown Muslim women alone.” There are tons of inherent misconceptions in this idea, first that it’s just “white people” doing this oppressive patronizing, second that Muslims are only brown…you get the idea.
My point is to say that we are working to better things for ourselves, and when well-meaning people who don’t understand our fight try to help, they really just make things worse for us. First, casting our religion and framework as “backward” and “barbaric” alienates us from those who want to help: I don’t want your help if you think I’m backward or inferior to you.
Second, when people who don’t understand everything that’s going on attempt to speak for us, they often (unintentionally) disseminate misconceptions about Islam or Muslims. So instead of tackling issues within our community, we have to defend ourselves from ignorance from outside and correct the misinformation.
Third, criticism from “outsiders” isn’t always accepted, especially in a climate of Islamophobia. When criticism comes from outside, patriarchal establishments look at this as an attack on their values, and become more conservative as they try to preserve what they feel is being attacked. Women in any culture are seen as the torch-holders of tradition and national and religious identity, so we as Muslim women are the first ones to feel the “preservation” in the form of mandatory dress codes, morality police, etc.
So, David, when you say “position of women in Islam, and Islam itself, is terrible” unless you’re a Muslim, Muslims are not going to give what you say any value and might even feel attacked because many feel that we live in a climate of constant attacks on Islam. As a Muslim woman, I know that Muslim women are suffering in my local community and in my international community; I don’t need you to tell me this. But when you posit this as a problem inherent in Islam, you close off all communications because it’s seen as an attack on our religion. Do you understand what I’m saying? The general reaction to statements like yours is “who are you to judge me/us/our religion?” It DOES matter where the criticism comes from and how it’s framed.
Also, many predominately Muslim countries are extremely sensitive to outside (usually Western) criticism, which stems from a history of colonialism and the manipulation of predominantly Muslim states by Western states. Thus, criticism from the west or non-Muslims is usually seen in terms as an attack on national, traditional, or Islamic values. So criticism that doesn’t come from within will be automatically discounted and/or seen as suspicious. This is why nothing will change if we don’t fix it ourselves.
@ Jon: I am an American woman, too. And I’m going to use my constitutional right to tell you that if you really care about Muslim women, and are not just cloaking imperialistic paternalism under a veil of concern, you’d help us help ourselves rather than assuming you can just fix our problems for us. We know what’s best for ourselves better than anyone else.
And personally, I don’t believe that any of those practices you mentioned are Islamic. I don’t believe the Qur’an gives anyone the ability to beat anyone: several scholars debate the meaning of that verse and the verb that has been translated as “to beat.” It can also mean “go away from.”
They are patriarchal misinterpretations that need to be corrected. See the Islamic link I mentioned. You can throw around as many suras from the Qur’an as you want, but that’s not going to help me or any other Muslim woman.
October 15, 2008 at 6:54 pm
I will be offering help to cure the backwardness and evil of radical Islam whether you want to help or not. The most important step is to ban public stonings FOREVER. Would you sign a petition sent to a respected mufti/cleric telling him that he should speak out against public stonings as it is a barbaric practice. (And don’t play the jew/christian game… uhh well stoning is in the bible!! Its barbaric no matter what so called holy book it is in)
October 15, 2008 at 7:11 pm
what am i trying to say is that this is not a very truthful, sincere and honest position. What you are doing essentially is trying to quash free speech, because you care more about how “whites” see you then you do about human suffering. Why else would you resist my help to put an end to honor murders, female genital mutiliation, public stonings, hand amputations, public floggings, murdering apostates (now a part of Iran’s law and always a part of Saudi Arabia I believe) and other backward and evil practices. Moral Relativism and Cultural relativism is unfortunately BS. The west of course, may not have the right way, but anyone who stones people to death sure as hell doesn’t have the right idea either!!
October 15, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Uh, Jon? Thanks for making it all about you. That’s definitely going to help women who suffer.
Question: just what exactly are you doing to “help” us?
I’ve already signed the One Million Signatures campaign, and I suggest you do, too. I’d be happy to sign any petition that includes the abolishment of these practices as a larger campaign of human rights. I’d sign that same petition whether a mullah saw it or not. And I don’t know what the Jew/Christian game is…
I don’t think you read my above comment. Just because I’m Muslim doesn’t mean I support any of these practices or feel they have Islamic basis. I AM FIGHTING AGAINST THESE PRACTICES. As are thousands of other Islamic feminists.
It’s obvious you just want a fight. I’m not going to bother with you any more.
October 15, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Fatemeh has pretty said everything I was thinking. Fatemeh’s post wasn’t intended to excuse inhumane practices. The post sought to highlight the paternalistic attitude taken by some non-Muslims towards Muslim women. Unfortunately, some recent comments only reinforce Fatemeh’s point. To Jon especially, I suggest you reread the post without preconceived biases.
October 15, 2008 at 11:15 pm
My two cents (not necessarily responding to Jon in particular, who may or may not be actually listening to us, but just to throw some more thoughts out there for others who might want to join the discussion…) I’m coming at this both as a Muslim and as a white western feminist, so it’s a bit confusing
First, I do want to acknowledge the many white non-Muslim feminists who are awesome allies for Muslims. Although there are some serious problems, as Fatemeh mentioned in her post, with many members of that category, I’ve met just as many (probably more) non-Muslim white feminists who are genuinely willing to listen to Muslim women and to act in solidarity with Muslim communities in the west and abroad. There is certainly space for communication and for working together, and it’s not about just dismissing non-Muslim feminists or white feminists altogether, just making sure that this collaboration is done appropriately.
I agree with what Fatemeh has said here, and wanted to especially highlight her point that it should be up to Muslim women to set the agenda and identify priorities for where we do and don’t want outside intervention. For example, I think all of us here agree that stoning is wrong. However, the practice of stoning is not actually all that common in many places in this time period. The vast majority of Muslim women aren’t actually in a position of having any risk of being stoned, and might identify other priorities (often based on their location, class, etc.), such as education, war, poverty, etc. as their biggest challenges, and also as the areas where outside help could be the most effective. So if someone takes it upon themselves to decide that they want to help Muslim women, and that their biggest priority is to end stoning, despite the fact that most Muslim women don’t even face this issue, they’re not necessarily doing much in support of the Muslim community. Meanwhile, countless Muslim women die because of wars or hunger, which many outsiders have little interest in dealing with.
The other issue is that outside intervention is not always helpful. There’s a complicated colonial history to this, and I think that those of us who are brought up in the West are often taught that we will always be helpful and useful no matter where we set foot, that it is up to us to “save” people in “other” countries. While there are definitely cases where outside pressure, money, etc. can be useful, that’s not the same as saying that these are ALWAYS useful.
October 15, 2008 at 11:25 pm
YES! What Krista said!
October 16, 2008 at 5:52 pm
I am really interested to know where you and other Islamic feminists draw the line with regard to the criticism and interpretation of Quran, hadith and sharia, and consequently what you consider Islam constitutes.
Surely your calls for greater liberalism in Islam is no more abrasive for many than the criticisms of westerners?
While I understand that there is misplaced criticism and help, whether due to lack of knowledge or organizational agendas, to throw up the “your not Muslim,” and “there are colonial overtones” cards is a really poor excuse. It is just a veil for Islam not wanting to recognize it is no different from the other world religions, and get off its arse and reform itself.
Islam is now worldwide. The days of a localized discussion and reform are over.
October 17, 2008 at 3:04 am
[...] write an open letter to non-Muslim white western [...]
October 18, 2008 at 4:02 am
What you’re talking about here is something that is endemic to white liberals, whether they identify as feminists or not. We are culturally conditioned to think of Islam in a very particular way, and escaping that–even for an educated person–is really, really hard. A lot of cultural regression goes on when the average liberal encounters the Muslim world. (Or Muslims elsewhere.) It’s so painful to watch that I avoided other westerners for several years when I was in Egypt. Most people don’t even realize that they’ve slipped back into a ruling race mentality. It’s built right into our cultural DNA, like a retrovirus.
Burra sahibdom. You have to be knocked on your ass *a lot* to escape it. I still have the bruises to prove it.
I’m singling out liberals here because most liberals don’t realize how much baggage they still carry. Conservative Islamophobes know exactly where they stand and why–they’re a known quantity to us, we’re a known quantity to them.
October 18, 2008 at 2:52 pm
@David:
Surely your calls for greater liberalism in Islam is no more abrasive for many than the criticisms of westerners?
I don’t see it that way, David. Reforming something you are part of, it’s your prerogative. When that criticism comes from the outside, though, it comes with the baggage of the outsider – with a perceived imperialistic attitude, with a perceived patronising tone. It smacks of “This is what is wrong with your beliefs, and this, and this, and this; why can’t you see it how we see it, why can’t you change it the way we want it to be changed?”
While I understand that there is misplaced criticism and help, whether due to lack of knowledge or organizational agendas, to throw up the “your not Muslim,” and “there are colonial overtones” cards is a really poor excuse. It is just a veil for Islam not wanting to recognize it is no different from the other world religions, and get off its arse and reform itself.
I’m a Catholic, and I don’t really like being hectored by non-Catholics either, when I am aware, thank you very much, of the inequality that exists in my religion. And I highly doubt that anyone of any faith would like it either. Who are you to say that Muslims don’t want reform? That last sentence, again, comes across as condescending and arrogant, because you’re ignoring and belittling everything that progressives like Fatemeh believe in and work toward.
And like it or not, David, there are colonial overtones in a lot of things the West takes up as its “pet causes”.
@Fatemeh:
Heh, eloquent post! (: I stop by MMW every day, and I love your writing (:
October 18, 2008 at 5:50 pm
As a white, non-muslim feminist; as a friend and ally to many muslim feminists; as a woman to another; I’d like to ask that, conversely, muslim feminists not assume that all of us are this way. I’ve always supported muslim feminists (and all feminists) while realizing that my only commentary “about” them should be to another western feminists like myself who, unlike myself, try to judge them. I’ve worked hard to try and speak, one western non-muslim feminist to another, about why it is my peers need to reassess the views you discuss in the post above. I know there are plenty of ignorant feminists who do equate hijab, Islam, middle-eastern descent or about a thousand other things with oppression and vicitimization, but it’s not all of us. Secondly, I think it’s really problematic that you single out **white** non-muslim feminists, as if feminists of color can’t and don’t take the same positions. While I get the significance of race, I think this is unneccessarily racialized.
As long as I use my efforts to enforce the statments you’ve written above, before and after reading this post, I ask that you also support me by not compartmentalizing me with every cultural imperialistic feminist you’ve met.
October 18, 2008 at 6:42 pm
@ beka: Thanks!
@ Willow: You make excellent points about western liberals.
@ Tara: fair enough. You also make some good points, specifically about race and compartmentalization. It’s not fair to generalize my experiences to apply to all white western feminists, and I appreciate your standing up for us to speak for ourselves.
However, I included “white” because the majority of paternalistic (or “maternalistic?”) imperialism cloaked in “we-know-better-than-you-dear-sister” stuff comes predominately from “mainstream” feminism, which is predominately white, western, and middle-class. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it doesn’t come from other places, races, or faces, but I liken my (and other Islamic feminists’) grievances to similar grievances by feminists of color, LGBT movements, etc., that find that Mainstream Feminism often ignores their issues or frames them in an We know best context.
Getting lumped in with people who have shitty viewpoints just because they have the same label(s) as you sucks, doesn’t it? Welcome to our (Muslim) world.
October 19, 2008 at 12:13 am
David, I can’t tell you where the line is on Islamic feminist interpretation because there isn’t one. Islamic feminism is just as varied as western feminism, and so there isn’t just one answer.
Re: who cares where criticism comes from? See above. I can’t explain it any better than that.
If reform doesn’t come from within, it will not come at all. Reform isn’t something that happens within a few years. It’s a slow, generational progress (notice the huge time difference between Margaret Sanger’s illegal family planning facilities in the 1920s and Roe vs Wade in the 1970s, for example).
And I disagree that localized arguments aren’t valid. Dr. Amina Wadud leads women in prayer in the U.S., Canada, and last Friday did it in Britain. She would not be able to do that in West Asia, because the way Islam is practiced and viewed there is often different than western countries. The issues that fall under “Islam” are varied, and one issue may not be of concern to a western Muslim population while it is a huge concern to a West Asian Muslim population. Islam is global, yes, but the way it is practiced, viewed, and embedded in local traditions/laws isn’t.
October 19, 2008 at 3:35 am
If Islamic feminism has issue with where calls for reform comes from, working on the premise that it is bonafide, then Islamic feminism has issues that will see it fall the way of any failed reform movement.
I understand the localized argument, but more and more as Islam has become a global movement, issues of reform, whether due to communication, human rights, or multiculturalism, means there is inherent crossover. If Islam is to attain to anything of what it promised it needs to be cross cultural, open to interfaith dialogue and get over the issue of crossover in a globalized world. There are going to be instances where it is to soon, too slow, too much, too little, that is just the way it goes.
And don’t forget without western feminism, “Dr. Amina Wadud leading women in prayer in the U.S., Canada, and last Friday did it in Britain” would not have happened. Western feminism may pretty well be dead, but its spirit lives on in another incarnation
October 19, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Secondly much of the Muslim populace has a holier than though perception of the Islamic faith. If Islam wasn’t in a dark age all this talk of colonial overtones and western feminist rhetoric wouldn’t be trotted out in defence of its snail like progress.
I’d like to break that statement down into its two, invalid, components.
A) “much of the Muslim populace has a holier-than-thou perception of the Islamic faith”: Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re suggesting Fatemeh is bringing an unfair, general statement against white critics of Islam, and yet there you come up with a generalisation yourself.
B) “all this talk of colonial overtones and western feminist rhetoric wouldn’t be trotted out in defence of its snail like progress”: Nowhere have I seen anyone on this thread saying that the talk of colonialism is in defence of the lack of reform. It is not. It is a charge being brought against the paternalistic nature with which some criticise Islam, and not in defence of anything. Besides, you sound as though you are dismissing the way colonialism has shaped mindsets around the world. Like it or not, former colonial countries maintain privilege, just like any other privilege, and the manner in which they criticise non-western elements (not the criticism itself) is the issue of contention here. When you use “dark age” you are implying that it is somehow wrong to point out colonialist attitudes, and that by doing so Muslims are regressive.
October 19, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Beka, I find you to be awesome.
October 20, 2008 at 12:37 am
“Islam is where Christianity was a few hundred years ago. Muslims need to recognize the state of their religion historically and spiritually.”
No, for better or worse, Islam is where Islam is today.
This kind of comparison, to me, illustrates a frequent problem with efforts at external intervention. People largely can not help but to look at things through their own lenses. They can not help but to try to find familiar comparisons through which to understand unfamiliar things, but doing so simultaneously idealizes one’s own historic trajectory and establishes one’s present state as The Goal. It erases the possibility of our having different goals and different means of achieving them. If Muslims wanted to be like Christians, here and today, there would be a massive spiritual exodus, a massive cultural exodus, and that would be that.
But we have our own struggles that fall outside of your comparative lens. Putting aside the voices of those struggles, the histories and priorities of those struggles, the independent goals of those struggles, for the sake of an easy comparison makes such a comparison not at all about helping us and entirely about helping yourself to feel as though you understand.
October 20, 2008 at 9:10 am
I like this very much!
October 21, 2008 at 2:47 pm
[...] 21, 2008 by The Girl Detective Earlier this week, Fatemeh of Muslimah Media Watch wrote an open letter to white non-Muslim Western feminists on Muslimista. Some highlights: There are those of us who suffer. But don’t speak of us as [...]
October 21, 2008 at 2:52 pm
[...] week, Fatemeh of Muslimah Media Watch wrote an open letter to white non-Muslim Western feminists on Muslimista. Some highlights: There are those of us who suffer. But don’t speak of us as [...]
October 21, 2008 at 3:06 pm
I’m nosy and terrible and I always want to ask how you think you can achieve equality if your religion requires different things of women and men.
But then I realize that it’s not up to me to ask. And in fact, within your own culture and religion, equality might well be totally possible. As an outsider I’m not really qualified to say.
Good post.
October 21, 2008 at 10:21 pm
M, you NAIL it.
October 22, 2008 at 11:31 am
Dear Fatemeh, thanks.
I’m a white, non-Muslim feminist, and I appreciate your letter. White, non-Muslim feminists like myself should already know that we don’t have a right to speak for others, but the reminder never hurts.
I love Muslimah Media Watch–it’s my personal way of checking my own prejudices and educating myself–and I’m glad to discover this site as well. So thanks again for all you, and for your patience.
October 23, 2008 at 5:03 am
Hi Fatemah, your post is interesting and eloquent
Sometimes it’s hard for people who haven’t been raised near a particular culture or belief system to understand how people from that culture or belief system might feel or act, it’s great that people such as yourself share these thoughts with us 
I’ll be subscribing 
October 26, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Thanks for reminding us to listen.
October 26, 2008 at 4:12 pm
I’m one of those white western feminists with the privilege to have spent several years in the Middle East, and I think it’s always useful to get a little privilege check.
Where some knowledge becomes worse than no knowledge is when it’s used as a substitute for the opinions and perspectives of those who are expert and particularly when this partial familiarity is used to further views that are, at their root, somewhat racist, sexist, or in this case Islamophobic.
Learning about another culture is difficult and lifelong work, and it’s always humbling, although essential, to remember that it’s an incomplete process.
October 26, 2008 at 4:13 pm
As a white non-muslim feminist who studies gender & feminist theory and comparative politics living in Oklahoma the MOST white-bread state in the union (with no $$ for study abroad, nor the social skills to date, well, any man at all really, saudi or otherwise), I very much enjoyed your commentary.
October 26, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Thanks Fatemeh!
sincerely,
a white non-muslim western feminist
October 26, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Jon – “You’re not helping when you say x” != “I want to take away your right to say x.” Total straw argument.
October 26, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Dear Fatemeh,
As a non-Muslim white woman who has lived in and studied the Middle East for years, and whose BFF is a practicing Muslimah, a BIG thank you. I wish all the western feminist groups (or at least many of their leaders) who are guilty of this (NOW, I am looking at YOU!) would read this.
Too many western feminists and feminist organizations have been willing partners to the West’s totally awesome adventures in the Middle East and South Asia, using the bodies of Muslim women to justify colonialism, death, destruction and military occupation (Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan being the most current).
As for lilywhite, there are just so many things wrong and hateful and nonsensical (shoved into abortion clinics???) about her post (her “Christian” views notwithstanding), I wanted to gag. Don’t need allies like her, either.
I only wish you would give specific examples of what you address in this post. Also, I think a big issue is western feminists’ promotion of people like Ayaan Ali and Irshad Manji, the latter being a featured speaker at NOW’s last national conference, to do their dirty work for them.
October 26, 2008 at 5:21 pm
One more comment – lest I seem to be picking on lilywhite, the men commenting negatively here are just trolls who absolutely LOVE and CARE about free speech and the plight of women everywhere, of course! Crawl back under your rocks, please.
October 26, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Although I have studied world religions and cultures for years, I still FAIL to understand Muslim female culture… again, I FAIL. I will continue furthering my education, but I come across so much juxtaposition at every turn! arggh. I know that you can’t put anyone in a box or make a blanket statement “Who we are as Muslim women”. It’s actually worse when the media tries to do that (to your argument). I just wish I could better understand the choices and decisions Muslim women make for themselves in the modern world.
October 26, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Hi, Feministing has been linking to you over the past several months. I hope it further expands your readership.
As a non-Western-origin feminist living in the West, I’d like to add my thoughts, many of which reinforce those made by other posters above (good points, Krista, Beka, and others):
1. The qualifier “White” is misleading and inaccurate, as it suggests that there is something peculiar to the state of European ethnicity–to immutable genetics or lineage–that is part of the problem; it isn’t. Women of all ethnicities who are several generations in the West and who are enmeshed in Western epistemiology have offered equally problematic crtiques of Muslim women.
2. I think the piece should have included a preemptive qualifier that reiterates Muslim feminists’ objections to the harmful cultural and religious traditions within their own communities. Regular readers might not need this (in the same way that regular readers of Feministing wouldn’t interpret an editor’s unqualified endorsement of S&M to mean endorsement of non-consensual S&M). But, it’s important to add this in, anyway, to make perfectly clear to Islamophones or cultural hierarchists that Muslim feminists ARE engaging with the harmful elements of their cultures, much in the same way Western feminists engage with the problematic elements–rape apologism; Girls Gone Wild; advertising–of theirs.
October 26, 2008 at 6:27 pm
3. WhiteLily, I appreciate your perspective. However, I think you’re misinterpreting Fatemah’s letter to mean a denunciation of Western feminism, full stop. I don’t believe that to be the case.
Nawal al Sadawi is a feminist, and Gloria Steinem is a feminist. They each want feminisim in their respective countries (Egypt and the U.S.). The only thing is, Western feminist theories may not apply across the board in a vastly different cultural and religious environment, just as Egyptian feminism may not apply fully to the U.S. But the key is not to do away with either one; the key is simply to tailor feminism to the needs and circumstances of each culture.
I’d also like to address your belief that “[Western women] suffer from these [Western] feminists, too.” Having been raised in the West and being a full participant in American culture and political processes, I have a stake in this “Western-centric” debate, too.
Feminists are not the ones causing your suffering.
Western feminism has been termed “choice feminism.” It valorizes personal choice over the communal pressure of eras past. According to Western feminism, you should be free to dress “modestly” as you put it (in fact, I dress this way, as well.) Western feminists want you to be free to choose abstinence from extramarital sex, to refrain from birth control, and to stay at home and home school your kids, if that’s what you want.
The only difference between Western feminists and, say, women who believe the same as Focus on the Family, is that feminists believe all people should make decisions for themselves, whereas politicized conservatives believe legislation must coerce all women to make the same choice. Although over my life many of my beliefs corresponded with Focus on the Family’s, the prospect that the government should force all women to make the same choice has become unacceptable to me and is immoral, in my estimation.
Western feminists despise Girls Gone Wild as much as they do the “purity balls” of the fundamentalist Protestant set. Why? Because both fetishize female sexuality and attempt to impose sexual codes on women: the former attempts to hypersexualize women for the benefit of the male gaze; the latter is a hyper DE-dexualization of women for an equally patriarchical end. Neither permits individual women’s agency or choice over her own decision to have sex or to refrain from it, and both are anti-feminism.
Sadly, many people–inlcuding you, it seems–confuse feminism’s belief that sex can be a valid choice for women with the partriarchical society’s insistence that women MUST be sexual and sexualized. Very big difference.
I urge you to join feminists in their denunciation of the harmful hypersexualized culture targeting young women and in their conviction that all women must have the right to make their own decisions about their lives.
October 26, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Cheers!
October 26, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Everyone, thank you so much for your thoughtful and positive comments!
October 26, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Dear Fatemah,
Thank you for an important reminder as I am a white, non-muslim feminist. I was recently required to write a paper on women’s rights across cultures, with a focus on women in Islam and I struggled with the idea that I was not in a position to speak on behalf of other women. As a result, my conclusions were vague. Basically I advocated for helping to facillitate women who were already fighting for change and to empower women of all cultures to realise when they were being systematically oppressed.
I think that your points are something that need to be heard by everyone who seeks to speak on behalf of another group. However, this does not mean that anyone who is trying to help others work for change is being paternalistic. While I’m sorry that there are people who have commented on this blog who are not capable of realising their sub-conscious feelings of superiority and the damage that they cause, I hope that should I ever display such tendancies that I will be called upon them so that I can change. Once again, thank you for a timely and important reminder.
October 26, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Well, this is an interesting story, I guess. Written by someone from the United States, complaining about being a victim. Playing the race card. Nothing new, or different, just someone complaining about the rights that Islamic feminism gives them. Okay, then why don’t you go preach that to the radicals in your community? You’re rights are protected; you live in the States. Go to a Muslim community and preach about Islamic feminism.
I urge you to join feminists in their denunciation of the harmful hypersexualized culture targeting young women and in their conviction that all women must have the right to make their own decisions about their lives. –Okra
You want to revise that statement? It’s wrong to have rights over their own lives?
October 26, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Salaams. AWESOME! MashaAllah.
October 26, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Okra,
Regarding your point #2 (Sorry, Fatemeh, this is not going to be positive):
Why is it that only Muslims (or Muslim women, in this case,) must reiterate over and over, for the sadistic pleasure of people whose minds are already made up about the inferiority of Muslims, Arabs and Islam, condemnations of their harmful cultural and religious traditions? Why? To soothe cultural hierarchists’disingenuous concerns about Islam, Muslim women or Muslims in general? Think this is going to change their minds? You have got to be kidding me.
When are we going to realize that most of these people (including some on the so-called Left and in the Western feminist community – I forgot one of the biggest offenders in my last comment, Equality Now) do not want to be educated or enlightened? That it doesn’t matter how loud and often Muslim feminists and progressives speak out? That they very deliberately use this worn-out meme as a stick wrapped in paternal concern to continue and feel righteous about their constant bashing of Arabs and Muslims in general?
I appreciate the patience that Fatemeh and others show the concern trolls here, and their efforts to explain and educate, but it really is futile. (I have none left – people are being blown to bits in Afghanistan and elsewhere and my taxes are paying for it.) As The Girl Detective pointed out in her post on Alas, A Blog, even a progressive feminist website like Feministe attracts comments from self-identified feminists that sound no different in substance from the more genteel Islamaphobes in our community.
And why is it the responsibility of Muslim feminists to educate Islamaphobes in the West, anyways (let alone non-Muslim feminists who can’t get past the veil or their own anti-Arab or anti-Muslim prejudices)? It reeks of narcissism and privilege to suggest they do this.
Point #2 is merely another tired reiteration (one stated in progressive terms, no less) of conservative concern trolling about the “lack” of Muslim voices speaking out about oppression of women, 9/11, etc.
Your “helpful” suggestion puts you dangerously close to just the kind of people Fatemeh was writing about here. You completely undermined your very spot-on point #1. Or, rather, you proved it with point #2.
October 26, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Update: The US just launched a raid into Syria that killed 8 people, including children. And here we are thinking the problem is that Muslims aren’t speaking up enough and that they need to educate us non-Muslims more.
October 26, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Thanks. I try not to speak for anyone else, but this was a great reminder.
October 27, 2008 at 1:22 am
You must be so tired of having to say this over and over. Your patience is extraordinary.
I’m so sorry the concern trolls of the world make it necessary. Personally, I think David, Silverarrow, and a few others would benefit from a little disemvowelling.
October 27, 2008 at 2:30 am
[...] by KTC on 27 October, 2008 What an interesting dialogue. I came across this blog via the WP.com Global Dashboard under ‘Fastest Growing [...]
October 27, 2008 at 5:46 am
It is never constructive to patronize the minority whose civil rights plight you sympathize with. “I’ll believe in liberal aid for us when I see a white man load a black man’s gun.”
I’d like to know more about the offenses of Equality Now; I belong to that organization.
Then, I retyped “i’m an atheist” about a thousand times in an attempt to diplomatically frame my indifference to the vitriol of the post.
it wasn’t successful.
October 27, 2008 at 5:52 am
I think this is an excellent letter, and an invaluable perspective. Obviously no one else can know exactly what’s best for a woman or completely comprehend her cultural circumstances. I understand that there will always be well-intentioned “good samaritans” who will condescend or advise action against your personal beliefs.
On the other hand, I honestly believe that it’s a mistake to be so dismissive of support given on the basis of heightening respect for human rights anywhere in the world. If you honestly don’t believe in the concept of universal human rights, it seems selfish that you would deprive others of exchange and support on that basis.
You may feel more comfortable choosing your battles, and anyone interested in supporting those efforts should be very interested in your opinions on what might be. By your own argument, though, I don’t see any evidence that you, simply by being a woman, will instinctively know exactly how widespread or nuanced any particular women’s issue in your own culture is, or can speak for all other women in a comparable position. You display a certain intolerance for Western beliefs that is poignantly hypocritical.
October 27, 2008 at 10:12 am
@ Nik: “You display a certain intolerance for Western beliefs that is poignantly hypocritical.”
Please explain.
To clarify: it’s not support that I’m dismissing. It’s the patronizing, racism, arrogance, and Islamophobia.
“By your own argument, though, I don’t see any evidence that you, simply by being a woman, will instinctively know exactly how widespread or nuanced any particular women’s issue in your own culture is, or can speak for all other women in a comparable position.”
And there it is. You’re asking me to provide my credentials to prove I know what I’m talking about. But no one asks non-Muslim western feminists what credentials they have to speak about Muslim women’s issues. Why is that?
October 27, 2008 at 10:21 am
I mostly agree with your sentiment, but I disagree with your logic. Stating that one person doesn’t know what’s best for another does not prove it’s true. Sure, it’s probably a product of my western whiteness that I believe a group of liberties to be inalienable, while they are considered contentious around the world. I believe in reproductive rights, for example; how could I act as though this is only inalienable for white people? I understand in what ways white-people-activism is patronizing. But it might as well be patronizing to white people and Muslim people equally, otherwise it only reinforces the association of Otherness with color. The fact is, I feel equally comfortable telling conservative white women, Muslim women, any women, any men, that I have a belief in their inalienable rights. Is that patronizing or is it good? Maybe it’s ironic that this belief comes from my insular little white culture, yet is about transcendency of liberty over culture. I’m an activist and would strive to act equally. If your post is mostly about the weird attention paid by white people to Muslim clothes, that’s different than asking white people to back any values Muslim women might have. Why would I do that any more than I’d support anyone else’s values that aren’t my own, from Republican economics to FGM to creationism? I understand what you’re saying, but I think it can be similarly problematic to say that inequality is fine when it’s “cultural.”
October 27, 2008 at 12:16 pm
good post.
you now need a “top five white troll responses to ‘an open letter’”:
1. Waah, not all whites are the same!
2. Waah, your culture is backwards and worse than mine!
3. Waah, I’m *helping*, you can’t stop me!
4. Waah, I’m more educated than you!
5. (best til last) Waah, abortions!
October 27, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Dear presumably-non-white Islamic feminist,
Why so angry? Have you tried speaking to your white sisters directly about these issues, and in this manner? The frustration apparent in your tone would suggest you haven’t. Don’t be so quick to assume they won’t listen – you never know, they might just surprise you.
As muslims shouldn’t we aspire to judge people by their intentions, however flawed, and correct their misconceptions gently, as you would wish them to correct yours when you brand them all as arrogant know-it-all busybodies. Be careful not to perpetuate this ‘them and us’ attitude that got us all into this mess in the first place, not least because that leaves some of us stranded – I myself as a white MUSLIM feminist find no place in this antagonistic discourse.
Don’t be surprised at the polarised reactions you’ve got in response to this article – if you ask people to pick a camp then they will. People will always try and put you in a box, muslim and non-muslim alike – the only thing we can do is be bigger than that box.
This is not about proving ourselves to others. Make your life an example for the sake of Allah, and cut your white sisters some slack.
Sincerely,
An Islamic feminist who has met one too many angry women in forums like this…
October 27, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Fatemah, thank you for an excellent, thoughtful and well-written piece. This is my first visit to your blog. I’ll definitely bookmark it.
As to some of the other comments, I wanted to bring out again this line in Fatemah’s post: “if we want better divorce laws in a particular country, don’t agitate for the abolishing of mandatory clothing policies.”
As I read it, this isn’t about whether or not to support equal rights for women in Muslim countries. It’s about the priorities that women in these countries have identified in their own communities. There are feminist movements and campaigns and organizations across the Muslim world. In Egypt, there’s a campaign on right now against sexual harassment, which is a big problem here. Elsewhere (Syria, I think?) Muslim feminists are fighting honour killings. In Morocco they changed the family law and divorce laws. Etc. etc.
But Western feminists, and critics of Islam as it relates to women in general, don’t usually speak out in support of these campaigns, and of the priorities women in Muslim countries are working on. Instead we tend to focus on the hijab, or niqab, or burka, sex segregation, the right to drive, polygamy. Not to say there aren’t things to criticize there, but I understand Fatemah to be saying that cries for change and equality are stronger when united, and that Western feminists etc. should, if we want to advocate in support of Muslim women’s rights, take our cues from them. We’re all working towards the same goals, and it’s better to do it together, no?
October 27, 2008 at 3:42 pm
@ leslie: “it can be similarly problematic to say that inequality is fine when it’s “cultural.”” I don’t believe that cultural inequality is acceptable. There are some Islamic feminists who believe that men and women have complementary roles rather than equal ones, but I don’t put myself in that camp.
@ Jess: lol. Thanks for making me laugh.
@ toubab-ibadou: Salam and thanks for your comments. I’m going to keep them in mind, but I feel my frustration is valid.
@ Klara: “cries for change and equality are stronger when united, and that Western feminists etc. should, if we want to advocate in support of Muslim women’s rights, take our cues from them. We’re all working towards the same goals, and it’s better to do it together, no?” Exactly.
October 27, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Klara, I really appreciate your post and agree with many of the points that you made.
Kat, thanks for your comments. In my many years of commentary on the Web, this is the first time anyone has ever suggested I’m a troll, but there’s a first time for everything, I suppose.
You’re free to reject the “concern” I expressed, but I, unfortunately, do not have that option for myself. I am obligated to be concerned over the fact that a wide variety of people–not just outright Islamophobes and xenophobes—are genuinely curious as to how I reconcile certain cultural traditions with my progressive, human-rights-oriented beliefs. Although it “shouldn’t” be the case that even progressives express this curiosity, the fact remains that they do, and that I cannot effectively reach out to Westerners without briefly addressing their assumptions and stereotypes of my culture.
My goal is to enlist as many people as possible in my struggle to secure human rights for members of my cultural group. If that means that I need to take one or two sentences to gently educate a Western readership, then that is what I do.
October 27, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Fatemeh – “My point is to say that we are working to better things for ourselves, and when well-meaning people who don’t understand our fight try to help, they really just make things worse for us. First, casting our religion and framework as “backward” and “barbaric” alienates us from those who want to help: I don’t want your help if you think I’m backward or inferior to you.”
I hope I don’t fall into any of the traps you’ve highlighted so well in your post and comment, but a person can never know for certain how they seem to others.
Your specific comment there got me thinking about the Christian sect that I was raised in – many specific tenets of which I do reject as backward and barbaric. There are criticisms I have leveled against it that, if they were made about similar tenets in Islam, well, it isn’t hard to figure out what you might think about my motives.
Saying that though, one of my favorite pieces of rhetoric in recent years was Arundhati Roy’s speech, “Come September“, where she illuminated the insanity of suggesting that a country could bomb its way to a feminist paradise. It’s like invading to force people into democracy, ridiculous. Liberation has to well up from beneath, populations have to come to it on their own terms.
Also, I know it wasn’t that long ago that many things westerners point out not to like about traditionally Islamic cultures were true of gender relations in the US and Europe. Not that other people necessarily see the ideal arc of their own social development as ending up where Western, secular humanists are today. Just that we’re not really more than three generations away from being enormous hypocrites.
Nor can it be overlooked, as Roy drove home in that speech, that many of these criticisms are used to advance sanctions and war which indiscriminately kill women, men, children, young and old – surely a gross violation of universal human rights for all categories of people. No one truly concerned about expanding rights for women should let their arguments be used as a cover for war crimes. If you support the expansion of warfare, or conditions that spread human misery, impoverishment and general suffering, you have grossly missed the point of feminism.
And returning to what I was trying to say in the beginning, but wanted to qualify, is that a lot of these critiques of Islamic culture come more specifically from a secular humanist perspective that’s also critical of the dominant faith in its own Western culture. This perspective, though it’s often co-opted for nefarious ends by people who don’t share its goals (what could be more revolting than GW Bush talking about supporting women’s rights?), isn’t actually the dominant cultural perspective through which non-Muslim westerners in the United States examine their own society.
Do I make sense or have I gone off on too many tangents?
So I’m sorry if any arguments I’ve made in the past have also been used by others in a culturally imperialist way. That sucks, and it makes me angry, because I made them in hopes that the culture I’m trying to change from within would deal with the rafter in its own eye, as they say.
But I’m not going to stop making those criticisms of the patriarchal structure of my native culture and faith, and I don’t think they’re wrong. Not that you’re asking me to. I only ask you to consider that I hold those beliefs out of conviction based on a criticism of my life experience, rather than from a projected disdain for anyone else’s culture.
Though anyone who wants to insist that you, or any other women working to reform their own cultures from within, should share my exact priorities or opinions regardless of their situation – they don’t have any support from me.
Especially, and with prejudice, the sort of people who look at countries where much of the population is illiterate and hungry, or where childbirth is a leading cause of death among women because of limited to poor medical care, or where people are rightly fearful of having their female relatives assaulted in public, and see only the issue of hijab. Or those who see educated Muslim women with full civil rights living in western countries and choosing to veil as identical to the Taliban enforcing the burka, and perhaps even make laws against it, because those people are complete morons (who’ve also never considered the existence of nuns, or the Amish, I suppose.) I think if a person’s main public concern is women’s clothes, they have also grossly missed the point of feminism.
October 27, 2008 at 4:40 pm
And I love that you have a picture of Anousheh Ansari right up top of the page. She’s a hero of mine. I got to meet her and get her autograph last year and I felt so honored to be able to shake her hand and thank her.
Geeks of the world, unite!
October 27, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Thanks for posting this. As a latina non-muslim, I know I have been guilty and I’m so sorry. I sometimes get on my women-of-color soap box and speak beyond my own experience. But in that, I’m doing exactly what white feminism does to me.
Thanks again for posting this!
October 27, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Why is it so difficult for so many people to respect requests for respectful interaction? Why is it so often the case that the act of firmly stating one’s own experiences and boundaries results in the endless whinging of others about one’s presumptiveness, ingratitude, and “selfishness”?
Having encountered the same weak, lazy tropes over the years in various incarnations {how dare queer women suggest heterosexual women can’t speak for their queer experiences of gender and sexism?! how dare escaped/working class women suggest that middle class feminism is classist and alienating?! how dare gimp women suggest to able-bodied women that they’re being myopic about access issues?! how dare mixed women tell monoracial women that monoracial women don’t get to tell mixed women what words are “appropriate” for self-descriptions?! et cetera ad nauseaum}, I am both exhausted by seeing them again here and heartened by the patience displayed by Fatemah and other posters.
Though this will mostly fall on deaf or reactionary ears, I still feel compelled to say that if we are really committed to all women’s self-determination, we have to ALWAYS be willing to accept as well as offer information, to listen as well as hold forth, and simply, to give the respect we expect to receive.
October 27, 2008 at 5:43 pm
regarding my use of language above – i am a queer, escaped working class, gimp, mixed blood woman, and i thought i should say so since it belatedly occurred to me that my language choices might be otherwise deemed problematic {or might still, for that matter}.
October 27, 2008 at 6:42 pm
What, in your book, gave Edward W. Said place to speak as a foremost American intellectual critic of American culture?
Ralph Nadar. By what standard should I exclude a Catholic Lebanese humanitarian and political activist for speaking for me within my democracy (if I am American)?
October 27, 2008 at 6:45 pm
and above all Muslims inside the Islamic world are not the same and may not even understand eahother. A Moroccan, A Saudi, A Pakistani or A Albanese woman are not the same so how can a foreign woman understand something she wasn’t born, rered and stuck in all her life. How much compassion love and knowledge they have they can never understand because they have a outside perspective of us.
October 27, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Was there a particular incident that made you want to write this post? Just curious.
October 27, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Just today I was astonished (and pleased) to see that coverage of the 3rd International Congress on Islamic Feminism made ‘most read’ on the BBC news website.
But then they did label it ‘Fighting for Muslim women’s rights’ rather than ‘Muslim Women fighting for Rights’ which would’ve been more accurate.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/7689897.stm
October 27, 2008 at 10:00 pm
@ Janine: ROCK ON.
@ SP: nobody is perfect. Everybody has biases, everyone makes mistakes. The key is whether we learn from them or not.
@ daranee: there wasn’t just one thing that served as a catalyst for this piece. It was a pressure cooker that included years of sitting in gender studies classes and having my religion shit-talked because of FGM discussions. It included being told about my own ethnicity or religion by white non-Muslim feminists b/c they had spent some time in the Middle East, or had taken a class. It includes the bullshit concern by Islamophobes like Daniel Pipes–he’s concerned about Muslim women all of a sudden? Pipes, please.
I’m not the first to say what I said in this piece and I won’t be the last. It just needs to be said. Over and over.
October 27, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Thanks for your post, Fatemeh. I like reading stuff that reminds me to keep a check on my own white, western privilege.
What really bothers me is seeing western conservatives – who’ve never expressed anything other than contempt for feminism – co-opting feminism in order to justify racism, colonialism and illegal wars.
Given the huge influence of socially regressive fundamentalist Christianity on American politics, it’s frustrating that some consider it reasonable to focus on Islamic culture as barbaric and regressive. The Bush administration has been terrible for women, and a McCain/Palin administration would be just as bad. The creationists’ assault on science and the attempts by Christian fundamentalists to deny gay rights and reproductive rights are a real problem, so it’s ridiculous to portray the US as a bastion of secular enlightenment.
October 28, 2008 at 12:45 am
Excellent post!
October 28, 2008 at 5:31 am
[...] An Open Letter to White Non-Muslim Western Feminists (tags: religion racism race feminism) [...]
October 28, 2008 at 6:12 am
I had the pleasure of attending the 3rd International Congres on Islamic Feminism.
I did so just out of curiosity and I must say that it was an enlighting experience.
I utterly recommend it to whitelily
October 28, 2008 at 11:48 am
nice post.
it also made my skin crawl when i saw that proponents of Islamo-fascism Awareness Week identified raising awareness of the threat of Islamic Jihad and “petitioning the violent oppression of women in Islam” as their two primary goals for the event. http://www.terrorismawareness.org/
it’s just enraging. of course, this is a much less subtle issue than the topic of your post, which speaks to the condescension of western feminists rather than the ridiculousness of conservative, fear-mongering hate groups co-opting the rally cry for Women’s Rights! and Equality for All!
October 28, 2008 at 12:20 pm
cool article..
October 28, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Hi, I am a white western feminist. I am also a Christian and as I don’t believe in sex before marriage I am a virgin. I wear Western style dress and I live in the West. I don’t care if Muslim women choose to wear the hijab in non-Western, Muslim countries. Indeed it is none of my business. However, I have the right to criticise immigrant communities in the UK which advocate wearing of the hijab. I have lived in London for eight years and my white Western feminist friends and I have been on the receiving end of misogynist comments from Muslim men, some of them neighbours. The Somali children a few doors down from my flat make comments such as ‘You’re easy’ when I wear a knee-length skirt. Their mother wears a burka. I think the children are being brought up to view women as chaste or unchaste according to their code of dress. I object to this mysogynist racist view. I criticise communities in the UK that promote wearing of the veil because I believe both the men and women of these communities are generally mysogynist towards white western women. I do not believe women who wear the veil are oppressed. I believe women who wear the veil encourage the harassment of western women by Muslims in western countries. Therefore I will continue to criticise veil-wearing in the UK. So please, don’t assume that my criticisms of female Muslim dress are inspired by an ignorant assumption that women are forced to wear the burka.
October 28, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Fatemeh,
Thanks for this post, it’s great. Even as I try to keep the things you talk about in mind all the time, as a Jewish western feminist who’s usually read as white and doing academic work in the realms of both gender studies and middle east studies, it’s really important to be reminded to check myself, again.
Your post also reminded me of a couple articles I came across while working on my thesis.* The first, by Lilah Abu-Lughod, “The Romance of Resistance: Tracing Transformations of Power Through Bedouin Women,” Saba Mahmood’s book Politics of Piety, and then some of the recent work done by Theresa Weynand-Tobin, particularly “On Their Own Ground: Strategies of Resistance for Sunni Muslim Women.”
Abu-Lughod’s article is a critical take on her own previous work, and the ways in which she read resistance and agency on to the actions of the women she was living with and writing about, (in this particular instance, Bedouin women in Egypt). Though she is an Arab-American woman (I believe she is muslim, but I actually can’t remember offhand), and she discusses the ways in which this influenced her research while she was doing it and the authority (or lack thereof) she was afforded in the academic world, she found that her western-centric educational frame and feminist lenses had skewed her analysis. She had, she writes, effectively romanticized the actions of “resistance” on the part of bedouin Egyptian women, without also understanding the way in which those actions sometimes re-inscribed women into other systems of power. The two quotations that, I think, best speak to her point are the following: “[Scholars] are more concerned with finding resistors and explaining resistance than with examining power, they do not explore as fully as they might the implications of the forms of resistance they locate” (pg 41). And, in her conclusion: “The problem has been that those of us who have sensed that there is something admirable about resistance have tended to look to it for hopeful confirmation of the failure – or partial failure – of systems of oppression. Yet it seems to me that we respect everyday resistance not just by arguing for the heroism of the resistors, but by letting their practices teach us about the complex interworkings of historically changing structures of power” (pg 53).
Mahmood’s book and Theresa Weynand-Tobin’s article call into question the way in which “agency” is defined, framed, and foregrounded in western feminist scholarship and research, using different examples of the experiences and identities of Muslim women (members of the mosque movement in Egypt, for Mahmood, and Weynand-Tobin’s concentration is with Sunni women) in order to demonstrate how power, agency, subjectivity, and ethical paradigms are formed and impacted by our socio-cultural environment. And thus, ideas of agency and subjectivity as they have been cast and defined in the west may not resonate with non-Western women’s experiences, and/or may be insufficient to characterize and describe them.
The reason these three authors and works came to mind, and the reason I just spent a good bit explaining them, is that I think it is important to problematize and question not just what white, non-Muslim, western women are saying and thinking about Muslim women (western or not, white or not), on account of being non-Muslim and western (and thus not *of* the group in question), but also the very foundations and assumptions about subjectivity, agency, and resistance that are taken for granted in most western rhetorical circles.
That is, my point is not, “hey look, even Muslim women say they get it kinda wrong sometimes (in the case of Abu-Lughod)”, but rather that it is about more than just a person’s race, ethnicity, or religion, but about the worldview that has been normalized. So, those who leap up with defensiveness for the white, non-Muslim, western women who *aren’t* like all of those “bad ones,” are misplacing their criticism and defensiveness. If there’s something under attack, or to be defended, it’s not our whiteness or our non-Muslimness or our western-ness, it is a worldview in which those positionalities are hegemonic, imperialistic, normalized, dominant, and go unexamined.
Now, foregrounding those characteristics in your criticism, Fatemeh, is, I think, completely warranted, explicitly because they are so often invisible and normalized – but I understand that to be a *device* to call into question something bigger than an individual’s identity, and not the primary problem in and of itself.
Perhaps this is not the case, and I am misreading you. If so, I apologize.
I think, however, that forcing all of us to look at ourselves and say, “how am I read, and what does that communicate to the rest of the world” is more valuable than just labeling. It makes those insidious claims of “reverse discrimination” unfounded, because we’re forced to examine power relations and not just identity categories, and it allows us to criticize something that is less inherently a part of our identity.
Sorry that got so long, I’m kind of wordy. Really though, if you haven’t read those 3, check them out. Abu-Lughod’s is the most accessible, and the shortest. She focuses more on the specific case she’s talking about, whereas Weynand-Tobin and Mahmood delve further into heady theorizing. (Mahmood’s book is really super awesome though. And recent.)
And again, thanks.
October 28, 2008 at 5:44 pm
I forgot to explain the asterisk after “thesis”
*My (undergrad) thesis looked at how subjectivity is constructed, how that impacts ethical paradigms in particular communities, post-secular ethics, and the implications of all of this for migrant women from majority-Muslim countries in Germany and the Netherlands in the context of contemporary discourses about immigration and multiculturalism.
October 28, 2008 at 8:44 pm
@ Freya: “I have the right to criticise immigrant communities in the UK which advocate wearing of the hijab.” While it’s not acceptable that these communities view you as unchaste or easy, it’s also unacceptable for you to feel that you have a right to dictate what these communities choose to wear, lumping them all into reductive categories like “immigrant” and “misogynist.” Their views may be misogynist, but it’s yours that are racist. And xenophobic. It’s spelled P-R-I-V-I-L-E-G-E. Look it up.
@ Jo: Thanks for sharing these awesome resources: I love Abu-Lughod’s work a lot.
@ EVERYONE: check out Sobia’s post if you haven’t already. It’s relevant (and a great one).
October 29, 2008 at 7:42 am
Fatemeh: I am criticising specific mysogynist views that may have a link with the cultural practice of women wearing veils. I also criticise mysogynist views that may have a cultural link with ‘lads magazines’ and mysogynist views which may have a cultural link with sexist advertising. Why should I not point out a cultural link? I don’t care what people wear. I do care that mysogynist views be challenged, whatever their cultural provenance. The open letter above was criticising white non-Muslim western feminists for spuriously assuming that women who choose to wear the veil are oppressed. I pointed out that women who wear western dress may criticise the practice of veil-wearing because they have experienced harassment from men who believe women who don’t wear the veil are unchaste. This harassment is unacceptable and should be challenged. The adjective ‘immigrant’ distinguishes the cultural practise of veil-wearing as originating outside the UK. Lads mags and demeaning advertising campaigns originate from the media and advertising industries in the UK and thus are ‘Western’ cultural practices. (I am constantly writing letters to politicians about about misogyny in the media.) The open letter writer clearly addresses white, non-Muslim, western females – a cultural, racial and religious distinction. The open letter writer chose those adjectives to distinguish the audience she was addressing her points to. The words white, non-Muslim and Western are not intrinsically derogratory and neither is the word ‘immigrant’. All countries have immigrant communities. I do not feel I have ‘a right to dictate what these communities choose to wear’. I feel I have a right to challenge mysogynist views. Its called feminism.
October 29, 2008 at 6:53 pm
First, Fatemeh, I really like the post title. So many other people out there seem to forget that one can be Muslim and white and Western at the same time.
Fatemeh Says: “Having the economic privilege to spend a few summers in Cairo or to study abroad in Dubai does not give you the authority to speak about Middle Eastern culture.
“Dating a Saudi guy does not give you the authority to speak about Islam. Or about Muslim men.”
For that matter, being Iranian-American and about as Muslim as secular Jews are Jewish doesn’t make me an authoritative expert on all Middle Eastern cultures, on all of Islam, and/or on all Muslim men either. I just live, listen, read, and talk about what I did learn from that.
Fatemeh Says: “Being an ally does not mean speaking for us, making choices for us, or figuring out what’s best for us. It means supporting and defending the choices we make and the voices we use.”
Exactly!
Both the non-Muslims who claim all Muslim women who wear hijab are oppressed (“they all must have been forced, who would choose to wear that?”) and the non-Muslims who claim all Muslim women who marry strangers want it (“they all must enjoy it, whatever men do to them is part of their culture”) are totally getting it wrong instead of actually listening.
thewhitelilyblog Says: “In fact, it ought to be argued that western feminism is simply bad–bad for Muslim women, bad for western women.”
So-called “Western” feminism (which isn’t just Western; Khadija was a leader in business!) is what lets me earn a living and stay a virgin at the same time.
I don’t feel pressured to marry a “good provider” and to be sexy enough to stay married to him to have him support me as a housewife by the time my father dies. I’d rather not have sex unless and until I’m in a loving romantic relationship with a man who loves me back – even if that means never having sex in my entire life (which is likely; ever since age 10 I’ve been “ugly” by both mainstream Iranian and mainstream American standards, so it’s unlikely that anyone will love me romantically). This is far more modest than making “housewife” my career goal would be. I and my father are both happy that we live in a society where women have many opportunities to earn a living that don’t require having sex.
Think about it: keeping one’s role as an accountant, chef, engineer, janitor, lawyer, rice farmer, teacher, etc. and keeping one’s virginity at the same time isn’t a joke the way keeping one’s role as a housewife and one’s virginity at the same time is. The opportunities to be accountants, chefs, engineers, janitors, lawyers, rice farmers, teachers, etc. are not simply bad for women.
Jehanzeb Says: “You also used some strong words to describe them like ’slaves’ or ‘dogs’ who register ‘rather than marry like human beings.’ Are you suggesting that if a woman isn’t married, she’s not a decent human being?”
Or that if a woman and man in love get married by registering their marriage at their town hall or city hall they’re not decent human beings?
Jehanzeb Says: “It’s not like you go out to a store, pick out a guy, and then get married. It’s much more complex than that.”
Excellent point. Speaking of complexity, as for the cases that aren’t so complex…
…ever noticed that if a woman has sex with a stranger after a blind date her friends arranged then some people will call her a slut but if she has sex with a stranger after a wedding her family arranged then some of those same people will call her a role model? Even though the sex in both cases would be equally immodest and unloving? No wonder so many of us want our choice of whether, when, and who to marry to be more complex than that!
Jehanzeb Says: “There are countless women who are victims of domestic violence, for example, but some of them are afraid to step forward and report them because they so dependent on their husbands. Do we still view marriage in the same positive light here, or do we start promoting independence for women so that if they find themselves in this position, they can develop the strength and determination they need to leave the man.”
Don’t forget promoting independence for women so that we’re less likely to depend on getting into those positions for food and shelter in the first place!
Jehanzeb Says: “You speak about single moms who raise their children — well is it their fault? What if the husband is the one who left? Who is to blame there?”
For that matter, what if the husband is dead and the wife still loves him too much to love another man? Should she and her family support her children? Should she marry a man she doesn’t love ASAP in order to have him support her children? Should her children just not be supported until she can love another man and marry him?
“I agree with her entire post and comment. I just wanted to point out how being unmarried doesn’t mean you have no dignity, or that you’re ‘impoverished.’ Many feminists work hard to establish equality in the workplace, in schools, and in homes, so it’s unfair to make those kind of judgments against them.”
I totally agree! It’s also very unfair to label that hard work “Western feminism.” What about all the feminists working hard to establish equality in the workplace, in schools, and in homes in their native communities outside the Western parts of world?
Fatemeh Says: “The point of my letter isn’t to say, ‘Butt out, white people, and leave us brown Muslim women alone.’ There are tons of inherent misconceptions in this idea, first that it’s just ‘white people’ doing this oppressive patronizing, second that Muslims are only brown…you get the idea.
“My point is to say that we are working to better things for ourselves, and when well-meaning people who don’t understand our fight try to help, they really just make things worse for us. First, casting our religion and framework as ‘backward’ and ‘barbaric’ alienates us from those who want to help: I don’t want your help if you think I’m backward or inferior to you.”
When I read your letter, it was loud and clear the the point was “Listen to us” instead of “Butt out and leave us alone.”
Fatemeh Says: “Second, when people who don’t understand everything that’s going on attempt to speak for us, they often (unintentionally) disseminate misconceptions about Islam or Muslims.”
…and (unintentionally) disseminate misconceptions about feminism (like “all feminists are Westernized pod people” etc.), right?
Fatemeh Says: “Third, criticism from ‘outsiders’ isn’t always accepted, especially in a climate of Islamophobia. When criticism comes from outside, patriarchal establishments look at this as an attack on their values, and become more conservative as they try to preserve what they feel is being attacked.”
This also reminds me of Western conservatives rejecting good ideas from abroad because they’re “too foreign.”
leslie Says: “Sure, it’s probably a product of my western whiteness that I believe a group of liberties to be inalienable, while they are considered contentious around the world. I believe in reproductive rights, for example; how could I act as though this is only inalienable for white people?”
Believing in reproductive rights isn’t just a product of western whiteness! Check out the RISUG which was chiefly developed by Prof. Sujoy Guha of the Indian Institute of Technology (see http://www.rxpgnews.com/latestclinicaltrials/RISUG_Reversible_Inhibition_of_Sperm_Under_Guidanc_3852_3852.shtml ), the SAPLER organization of South Africans working in sex ed outreach (see http://www.population.org.za/ ), the state-supported Keyhan Bod condom factory in Iran (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1949068.stm ) etc.
leslie Says: “The fact is, I feel equally comfortable telling conservative white women, Muslim women, any women, any men, that I have a belief in their inalienable rights. Is that patronizing or is it good?”
That’s good. If you don’t also listen to people about what we’re already doing to have our inalienable rights, then that lack of listening is the patronizing part.
Glory Says: “Just today I was astonished (and pleased) to see that coverage of the 3rd International Congress on Islamic Feminism made ‘most read’ on the BBC news website.
“But then they did label it ‘Fighting for Muslim women’s rights’ rather than ‘Muslim Women fighting for Rights’ which would’ve been more accurate.
” http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/7689897.stm ”
I saw that article too, and it was great to see the coverage written by several members:
ASMA BARLAS, Author, Pakistan
RAFIAH AL-TALEI, journalist, Oman
NORANI OTHMAN, Scholar-activist, Malaysia
SITI MUSDAH MULIA, Academic, Indonesia
AMINA WADUD, Academic, United States
FATIMA KHAFAJI, Consultant, Egypt
instead of just by one reporter. Also, I agree with you about how ‘Muslim Women fighting for Rights’ would have been a better title.
Freya Says: “The Somali children a few doors down from my flat make comments such as ‘You’re easy’ when I wear a knee-length skirt. Their mother wears a burka. I think the children are being brought up to view women as chaste or unchaste according to their code of dress.”
The problem is bringing up children to view women as chaste or unchaste according to their code of dress. The problem isn’t wearing hijab or wearing burqa or wearing a skirt below the knees. The problem also isn’t speaking up in favor of having the option to wear hijab. For example, I do usually cover my legs (more accurately, covering the hair that grows back within a few hours through the razor burn that takes a couple of weeks to heal), I’m glad my secondary schools didn’t require girls to wear knee-length skirts, and I don’t condemn women and girls who reveal their legs (no matter if they’re hairy, shaven, naturally hairless, artificial prosthetics, and/or whatever).
Fatemeh Says: “@ Freya: ; I have the right to criticise immigrant communities in the UK which advocate wearing of the hijab.’ While it’s not acceptable that these communities view you as unchaste or easy, it’s also unacceptable for you to feel that you have a right to dictate what these communities choose to wear”
I totally agree.
Fatemeh Says: “@ EVERYONE: check out Sobia’s post [ http://muslimnista.org/2008/10/28/stand-up-with-muslim-women-johann/ ] if you haven’t already. It’s relevant (and a great one).”
Thanks for the link!
October 31, 2008 at 1:54 pm
[...] came across this blog earlier this week and it made me think about the state of online forums (read: banter). The [...]
November 1, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Freya, you are blaming women for the things men do. This is never acceptable.
November 2, 2008 at 4:37 am
@ Freya
You said in a later post that you are “criticising specific misogynist views that may have a link with the cultural practice of women wearing veils,”
That’s really the problem isn’t it? You’re assuming that there is a causal link between wearing a hijab and the proliferation of misogynist views. I think its difficult to assert that idea so definitively, if at all.
I agree with Fatemeh; its unacceptable that you argue for banning the veil, thereby lumping every women who wears a hijab into the category of people from whom you experienced such attitudes. It is discriminatory when they say such things to you, however its deplorable that you turn around and draw blanket generalisations about what communities may or may not think from you experiences with some of the people in your community.
“I pointed out that women who wear western dress may criticise the practice of veil-wearing because they have experienced harassment from men who believe women who don’t wear the veil are unchaste”
I don’t think banning veiling will alleviate the issue. Men will be misogynist with or without women wearing the veil. Its a symptom of a deeper social problem which must be addressed through more than just band aid soultions.
November 2, 2008 at 8:20 pm
With regard to wearing the veil. I find it puzzling as to why some women *choose* to wear the veil (I am not referring to those who have been forced). Apparently, there is no Koran insistance upon it.
I personally object to it from both a strongly feminist point of view but significantly from a hearing impaired perspective.
Choosing to wear the veil is an active discrimination against those who are hearing/communication impaired who depend upon lip reading and facial expressions for communication.
November 3, 2008 at 2:02 am
@ Lee: By “veil”, you’re referring to the niqab or the burqa, which hides women’s faces. Not the headscarf, or hejab.
And women who choose to wear the niqab aren’t doing so to actively harm the hearing impaired community. You have to be effing kidding me with this.
November 3, 2008 at 7:34 am
@ Lee
“I personally object to it from both a strongly feminist point of view but significantly from a hearing impaired perspective.”
And I personally recommend it from a “strongly feminist point of view”… but apparently my feminism and rights aren’t the “correct” view. Thank you so much for clarifying for me that I can’t possibly have my own mind.
And it is really funny to me how I’ve never known a hearing impaired person who objected to my niqab. I have several hearing impaired Muslim and non-Muslim acquaintances, and it has never been a problem. In fact, I am slightly hearing impaired myself and have never had an issue with wearing it or dealing with other women who wear it. This is another example of someone ASSUMING there is an issue and assuming they have a right to speak for others. Hearing impaired people have their own agency and don’t need to you speak for them either.
Get off your ego tripping ignorance and mind your own business.
November 3, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Just one quick question. I face this dilemma everyday. You, the author, argue that they shouldn’t speak for Muslim women. Who are you to speak for them? Since when YOU (individual) became WE?
Know that you don’t speak for no one but yourself. Case in point.
November 4, 2008 at 2:16 am
Hamad: here is a post I wrote addressing that very question. The comments are the best part; it’s a great discussion.
November 5, 2008 at 2:07 pm
wow. “White feminism”?! Really? Gross. My stomach just turned. Ladies stop taking the angst out on your fellow sisters (black, white, latina, asian, whatevah). We all obviously found this post via open-minded, free-speaking blog links, etc. so we are all obviously here to learn something. Do you really feel better about yourself after slamming someone with shared feminist values with your “you could never understand me so stop pretending to sympathize with my plight” rhetoric. Please. Why dont you try educating us about your actual beliefs instead of debating every stupid point. What do you really believe in? That is all anyone wants to know. Then, maybe, we could have real debate.
November 5, 2008 at 4:04 pm
@ Boboleta: “Why dont you try educating us about your actual beliefs instead of debating every stupid point.”
It’s been done. And done. And done. And done. And done. And done. And done. And done. And done. And done. And done. And done. And done.
These are just recent examples. I would list more, but I’m busy and (and not responsible for your education). It’s not our fault you’re not listening.
Uh, boboleta? Your privilege is showing.
November 5, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Fatmeh- Uh, and your angst is showing. I’ve actually read “the veil and male elite”. Still confused as to what Muslim women really want in this life (besides for westerners to leave them the F*** alone, lol.) Get over yourself already and come out of your monocular bubble. We are all SO privileged according to you, and this opinion based on SO much information I have given you about myself or anything I have actually said. Sorry you are tired, but I am a multi-culturalist, not of privilege, and have to defend my damn beliefs everyday because I choose to surround myself with others who don’t look at the world from my perspective either. I have been to several Muslim-fem blogs, sites, etc and asked specific questions and no one can ever give me a straight answer on anything. It drives me crazy. At least you did a nice deflection and called me names instead of just ignoring my post. Your blog could help to guide us unenlightened, imperialist, mis-guided, non-muslims to something culturally relevant that would help us understand the real depth of belief Muslim women hold for their culture and faith, and that is what I am here trying to understand. Oh, and I’ve never been to Cairo, Dubai, or anywhere else in the middle east. Please come up with a new stereo-type.
November 5, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Another thing you must understand, some of us in the west have no connection to the Muslim world (and I do mean NONE). It is your everyday life, so its hard to think some people may never experience anything related to muslim culture. Outside of literature, I have no examples of muslim culture in my life. I have 2 friends of muslim families, but both are non-practicing westernized american girls. I have Arabic friends that are not Muslim. So where would I get any info? I watch all sorts of news. I see bad things happening in Muslim countries. I really just want to understand what Muslim women’s goals and beleifs are. That is all. I don’t expect you to explain an entire section of a belief system, I get the basic tenets of Islam and Sharia. I just wish a muslim woman could tell me what she really wants and thinks, like all of the chicks i talk to from other backgrounds, religions, lifestyles, etc.
November 8, 2008 at 9:36 pm
@Boboleta
“I just wish a muslim woman could tell me what she really wants and thinks”
a) why do we have to tell you what we want or think? Maybe it’s none of your business. Are we demanding you to tell us what you want or think all the time?
b) you claim to read Muslim women’s blogs all the time. IF that is true, then Muslim women are telling you what they want and think ALL THE TIME via their blog posts. You just don’t like what you are reading and are demanding more info.
“like all of the chicks i talk to from other backgrounds, religions, lifestyles, etc.”
If you make friends with other women and earn their trust to tell you things, then why don’t you do the same with Muslim women? If you don’t personally know any Muslim women in real life, while implying that you have friends and acquaintences from other backgrounds, then it’s probably because you choose not to engage Muslim women. Or that you are so rude that Muslim women don’t want to keep company with you. I suspect it’s a bit of both.
In fact, this post is telling you, point blank what Muslim women want and you are insulting the author for telling you! If you “want to understand” maybe you should simply SHUT UP and listen more. Because your privilage IS showing and your lack of manners to boot. No one wants to hear you whine about how you don’t have access to Muslims… you are either a liar or stupid to make such a claim because you also said that you read so many Muslim women’s blogs, and you seem to have found your way to this blog. Obviously, you do have access to Muslims and Muslim women.
We don’t have to answer your questions, it’s your job to educate yourself and reading blogs like this is a good place to start. But it’s quite ridiculous to argue and make false accusations instead of just reading what’s right in front of your face.
November 9, 2008 at 12:43 am
A few people seem to be missing your point.
Just take it to heart that they mean well and ignore them (or if they are particularly annoying–avoid them). Humans are opinionated creatures, and western culture encourages us to wear our opinions like a flag. We just forget sometimes that not everyone wants to hear them. XD
November 11, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Whoa. The comment thread has exploded since the last time I dropped by this post! And the discussion’s really interesting, the whole spectrum of opinions on this issue.
@boboleta
I just wish a muslim woman could tell me what she really wants and thinks, like all of the chicks i talk to from other backgrounds, religions, lifestyles, etc.
Forgive me for being presumptuous, but that is precisely what Fatemeh is doing here!
And [re: Still confused as to what Muslim women really want in this life (besides for westerners to leave them the F*** alone, lol.)], I think what Muslim women want would include stability in life, spiritual balance, personal achievement… you know, what any other human being would want?
Personally I think boboleta has a valid point, in that Western society doesn’t really see a lot of Muslim representation. For me, I get where Fatemeh is coming from, because I am Asian, because I live in a predominantly Muslim region, and because Southeast Asia on the whole tends to be very sensitive to Western criticism after our history as colonies; but I really do understand what boboleta is trying to say, that in the West there is less access to this sort of cultural diversity. It has to do with demographics, though, and it works both ways: actively engaging Muslimah voices, and also accepting those voices like what Fatemeh has been saying over and over.
(Forgive any incoherence, it’s 1:10AM where I am and it’s a school night…)
November 12, 2008 at 9:36 am
“Personally I think boboleta has a valid point, in that Western society doesn’t really see a lot of Muslim representation.”
Except that isn’t even true. It’s just not. There is a ton of Muslim representation in Western society, but people choose to ignore it.
If someone said the same thing about any other group, “I don’t know any Black people”, “The Latinos aren’t really represented in the media and then in stereotypical ways so I don’t know anything about them” we would all recognize that for the self-serving LIE that it is. We would recognize that the person is RACIST and too lazy to challenge or search for the truth.
Why is it so hard to see that same self-serving dishonesty when it is said about Muslims? How do you think people are converting even in tiny towns where they are the only Muslim? Excuse me, but I live in the U.S., in a medium-sized city that is predominantely white and Christian Reformed. If I tried to say that I didn’t ever have a chance to engage Muslims in any way, I’d be lying – and so is anyone who tries to claim that here. We do have people here who claim they never have an opportunity to engage with anyone of a different background, and it just isn’t true – it’s a personal choice.
More to the point: If you have access to the internet (and I realize that is a privilage not everyone has, but anyone reading this blog certainly can’t use that excuse) then you have AMPLE opportunity to find Muslim representation and to engage with Muslims. But again, you have to stop insisting that Muslims meet YOUR desires of what they portray. You have to take what we say and just take it in.
This here is a perfect example of Fatemeh sharing what she, as a Muslim woman, wants. Fatemeh and I don’t agree on a lot of things, but we agree on this. She can’t speak for all Muslim women, but across the board, yes, what we ALL want is what ALL WOMEN want. Maybe if women just thought about all the things they take for granted or wish they had (security, autonomy, independence, to be allowed to speak for themselves, education, respect) they wouldn’t keep asking Muslim women what we want and refusing to hear the answer. What we want isn’t so different from what every woman everywhere wants, and you don’t have to personally know a Muslim woman to understand that.
November 13, 2008 at 8:58 pm
@ Boboleta
I don’t want to come across as if I’m attacking you because I can see all the other rebuttals that have been made to your comments. Rather, I just want to, like the other replies, try to re-articulate to you the point of this article:
The society of Muslim women is composed of people. It is hetereogeneous. In some aspects, we are homogenous. Does that sound contradictory or confusing?
It is just as confusing and contradictory to try to sum up what “the Muslim woman” wants, as it is to try to sum up what “the Western woman” wants.
Do you see the point now? The Western world is more priveledged than us, and we would like to work with you…emphasis on WITH. Work WITH you, since we too, are WORKING. We do not want you to work “for us”- nor do we need you to.
Imagine the frustration you would feel if someone from a different culture was trying to water down problems that your demographic faced and was trying to assert that they could give you a one-faceted solution…or if they were speaking of your cause as if you were a charity case.
It would be very frustrating for you as the image created FOR you, by someone ELSE, would UNDERMINE the heterogeneity of your demographic and would add to the very problem that you would be trying to tackle: you can handle yourself and are independent.
Sorry if I made any grammatical errors…I’m ranting…but I think the best way to understand the point of this article, if you are not a Muslimah, is by switching the roles and trying to see how you would feel. Then, and only then, will you understand our complaints. It is quite simple to do, and will bring all of us to a better place rather than trying to study the Muslimah like a chemical compound through a microscope.
November 14, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Except that isn’t even true. It’s just not. There is a ton of Muslim representation in Western society, but people choose to ignore it.
*smacks head*
Sorry for putting it badly, Aaminah! I meant to say that the mainstream Muslim representation, in the media and all that – there isn’t enough, and that’s a huge problem because of how the media tends to stick to the stereotype of the veiled, oppressed Muslim woman when they even do mention Muslim women.
I didn’t mean to imply Muslim representation doesn’t exist, I was trying to say it gets passed over/ignored. Basically, was trying to put across what you said, but did it badly.
Again, apologies for any misunderstanding…
January 20, 2009 at 8:41 am
Great letter,
I hear this happening all the time. My classmates at university and people on the bus or train who think that they’re some kind of savior for all of womanhood. Give me a break!
As an Orthodox Jew living in NYC, I can sympathize with you. We CHOOSE our lifestyles, we can leave whenever we want. Don’t call us oppressed just because we don’t dress/act/speak the same way that you do. Don’t call us oppressed because we adhere to a set of beliefs that you can’t understand! You go girl! Continue to be a voice for Muslims, and other women everywhere!
February 5, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Fatemeh,
A great post. You easily and effectively outline the problems that arise from adapting Western Feminism onto the women’s movements in Muslim countries. Progress and change must come within an Islamic framework; work needs to be made within the system in order to change how it operates. History has long proven that what is best for one country doesn’t necessarily have the same result in another. In fact, oftentimes, the effect is quite the opposite of what was intended. This is rather unfortunate, but sadly, too true. I think this is Western Feminism’s biggest dilemma. Their motives are good, their ideas are appreciated, but they must work with, and not for, Muslim women. They must listen and learn the ins-and-outs of the culture before sharing their opinion and gathering outside support. Even then, this does not give them the right to march into a foreign country, protest the treatment of women and then try to convince the female sex to throw off their hijab, so to speak, and welcome Western Feminism. This causes many ethnic women to reject any sort of foreign aid in an kind of patriotic or religious duty.
Too often does WF overlook the efforts of marginalized women. “Don’t deny the agency with which we become survivors and active shapers of our lives. Don’t ignore the fighting we do for ourselves.” I think this is beautifully stated. Women from all walks of life have struggled to overthrow the regimes and practices that make their lives difficult but we don’t often here about it. Instead, news programs and fluff pieces glorify the middle-class white woman who leaves her suburban home to go and fight the fight in Iran or Afghanistan or something. What about the young women in these countries who silently and successfully work to change things?
Western feminists need to help Muslim women. I think this is pretty obvious given the current state of affairs. But it must be understood, by all sides, that one group cannot and should not force their ideas and beliefs onto the other in a sort of ideological colonization. As a non-Muslim White woman, I do not know what’s best for the women in the Middle East or Africa. I cannot even begin to comprehend the complexities of the issues. All I know, and all I can really contribute to the matter, is an awareness that women need to work in a framework best suited to them. For now, Islamic feminism seems to be the answer.
June 24, 2009 at 2:07 pm
[...] An Open Letter to White Non-Muslim Western Feminists « Muslimnista There are those of us who suffer. But don’t speak of us as victims if we are not dead. Don’t deny the agency with which we become survivors and active shapers of our lives. Don’t ignore the fighting we do for ourselves. (tags: feminism islam muslimahs beinganally) [...]
July 22, 2009 at 2:25 am
[...] An Open Letter to White Non-Muslim Western Feminists [...]
July 26, 2009 at 8:17 am
I must say I am very pleased and upset at the same time.
I’m from Cairo, Egypt and I’ve traveled and lived in many countries. And I always come across the same problem: people who come to Egypt for a couple of months, without speaking the language, without knowing anyone, and think that they have it all figured out.
I always keep making the argument that Egypt is a closed society, representing 7,000 years of civilization and history, it takes A LOT to learn how things work.
The issue with women in the Arab/Muslim world is a very complicated one, and I always tell them that they cannot speak of it because it’s far more complicated than they can imagine.
But let’s face it, many Europeans have an inferiority complex. They immediately think that their way of living is the right one, and they need to criticize other “lesser” societies to feel better about themselves and the “freedoms” they are granted back home.
I cannot thank you enough for such a direct, informative letter. If there’s anything that I can do for you, please just ask. Good luck, salam.
August 12, 2009 at 1:56 am
Well I appreciate your letter Fatimah but I have some reservations. To start with there is a great deal of contradiction in you letter. At one point you criticize western women for being biased and prejudiced against the Muslim women and on the other hand.
You along with many others have generalized all the white women or men as the same as if all have the same opinion. I know we Muslims today are misjudged by majority now a days but that all is because of our deeds. I fail to understand why Muslims have to defend Islam’s stance on women, hijab and everything else to do with women.
Islam is such a modern flexible religion that has a defined logic for every regulations and we as Muslims are only obsessed with women in Islam. Where as there is so much more in to it.
You have identified a grave issue which i personally believe is normally perceived by the Muslims especially around south Asia.
All we do is defend Islam and impose our judgments same as many westerns and then we claim to be at the superior edge, and cry out for the ignorance attitude of the world, based on this fact that we by the grace of Allah’s will are born in Muslim families.
As per the regulation of our religion we should be more tolerant, kind and logical and should show the results to prove of our strengths. Unfortunately we Muslims today are all talk, we claim that we know it all we do not act and at the end impose it all on the western side of the world claiming that they are responsible for interference.
No body in this world can affect your presence other then you your self and I am ashamed to say that today if we are facing discriminatory attitudes from the world it is because of our own hypocritical acts, theories and lack of understanding and sadly in this process the name of Islam is being deteriorated where as it is us the Muslims who have brought all this on our selves.